Discussion:
Hurricane... Inverter in car, or generator on balcony
(too old to reply)
d***@gmail.com
2006-05-27 15:21:14 UTC
Permalink
I am in Florida and have gone through two years of bad hurricanes with
power outages that have lasted over two weeks. I live in an
apartment/condo with pretty large balconies... and was thinking of
using the Honda EU1000i or EU2000i portable generator on the balcony...
but, this might not be permitted by my condo rules and regs, and I'm
concerned about the safety issues as well... even if I keep my windows
closed, what about the downstairs neighbor!

As an alternative I'm considering a permanent inverter installation in
my car (and running extension cables up to the 2nd floor) after having
great success with a small 150 watt inverter the previous hurricane
season (it was enough to power my laptop (watch movies), a fan and a
couple of fluorescent lights).

I'd like at least 750 watts for the inverter and would like your
thoughts and opinions about a permanent installation of such a unit in
my car (I will probably have a car alarm/stereo place do the install).
Or, should i reconsider the small Honda generators instead?

Thanks!

Cliff in Delray Beach, Florida
Vaughn Simon
2006-05-27 17:37:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by d***@gmail.com
I am in Florida and have gone through two years of bad hurricanes with
power outages that have lasted over two weeks. I live in an
apartment/condo with pretty large balconies... and was thinking of
using the Honda EU1000i or EU2000i portable generator on the balcony...
but, this might not be permitted by my condo rules and regs, and I'm
concerned about the safety issues as well... even if I keep my windows
closed, what about the downstairs neighbor!
I am sure that you will see hundreds of generators running on balconies
afer the next hurricane, but the idea scares the hell out of me and it may well
be forbidden by any given condo Assn. Another possibility (if allowed) would be
to make a deal with your downstairs neighbor, and share an EU2000 placed down at
ground level.
Post by d***@gmail.com
As an alternative I'm considering a permanent inverter installation in
my car (and running extension cables up to the 2nd floor) after having
great success with a small 150 watt inverter the previous hurricane
season (it was enough to power my laptop (watch movies), a fan and a
couple of fluorescent lights).
I'd like at least 750 watts for the inverter and would like your
thoughts and opinions about a permanent installation of such a unit in
my car (I will probably have a car alarm/stereo place do the install).
Or, should i reconsider the small Honda generators instead?
I suggest an alternative. Buy yourself a nice deep-cycle battery, a
battery box and a float charger. (Be sure it really is a float charger, not
just a trickle charger) Keep the battery charged in your apartment and get
yourself a couple of 12-volt flourescent lamps and a 12-volt fan to run off of
it. (Don't forget a 12-volt cell phone charger and a 12-volt power supply for
your laptop. Oh yes, you will also want one of those nifty 12-volt
televisions.) Buy yourself some monster cable and some big alligater clips to
make a long jumper cable to recharge the battery from your car, or get a little
dolly and lug it down to the car for charging (enjoy the AC in your car while
you are charging your battery). The inverter is now optional, but I would
discourage it because it is a heluva power hog.

You can get the charger and many of the 12-volt cords/splitters and other
gizmos at Harbor Freight in Lake Worth.

Now you have a noise-free hurricane comfort/survival system that (unlike
the genny) you can also use right through the storm. I set up this identical
system for a friend of mine in Century Village and also for my father.

Vaughn (in Lantana)
Post by d***@gmail.com
Thanks!
Cliff in Delray Beach, Florida
Harry Chickpea
2006-05-27 17:58:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Vaughn Simon
Buy yourself some monster cable and some big alligater clips to
make a long jumper cable to recharge the battery from your car,
The line losses and voltage drop going to a second floor balcony make
this a losing proposition. For a single battery, using a small
handtruck or fold-up luggage cart from the 1970s works well getting a
battery to and from a car.
Vaughn Simon
2006-05-27 18:23:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Harry Chickpea
Post by Vaughn Simon
Buy yourself some monster cable and some big alligater clips to
make a long jumper cable to recharge the battery from your car,
The line losses and voltage drop going to a second floor balcony make
this a losing proposition. For a single battery, using a small
handtruck or fold-up luggage cart from the 1970s works well getting a
battery to and from a car.
No, actually I have done it. With a second floor balcony and assuming the
car is parked near, you are talking about 30 feet of #10 or #8 "monster" cable.
Given the modest loads that I discussed earlier, that setup should allow a
useful charging current. In fact, the greatest contributor to the overall
resistance of the circuit is likely to be the contact resistance of 4 alligator
clips. I agree, the battery cart is more efficient. One would connect the
battery, allow an hour or so for the batteries to equalize, and then start the
car for an hour or two to finish the charge (and to get cool in the car's AC
with the blower on low to conserve juice.)

Vaughn
Harry Chickpea
2006-05-27 19:48:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Vaughn Simon
Post by Harry Chickpea
Post by Vaughn Simon
Buy yourself some monster cable and some big alligater clips to
make a long jumper cable to recharge the battery from your car,
The line losses and voltage drop going to a second floor balcony make
this a losing proposition. For a single battery, using a small
handtruck or fold-up luggage cart from the 1970s works well getting a
battery to and from a car.
No, actually I have done it. With a second floor balcony and assuming the
car is parked near, you are talking about 30 feet of #10 or #8 "monster" cable.
Given the modest loads that I discussed earlier, that setup should allow a
useful charging current. In fact, the greatest contributor to the overall
resistance of the circuit is likely to be the contact resistance of 4 alligator
clips. I agree, the battery cart is more efficient. One would connect the
battery, allow an hour or so for the batteries to equalize,
(I wouldn't wait much more than five minutes in this situation, if
that. You are "jump starting" the deep discharge battery, and if the
voltage was particularly low, you could drop the car battery surface
charge below where it would easily start the car.)
Post by Vaughn Simon
and then start the
car for an hour or two to finish the charge (and to get cool in the car's AC
with the blower on low to conserve juice.)
Vaughn
I agree that a long cable sort-of works, enough for a day or two, but
I wouldn't want to use it for much more than that, for fear of
undercharging the battery. This isn't an absolute, but part of the
trade-offs of battery convenience, lifespan, and use. The issue I see
is that long cables don't allow enough voltage for an equalizing
charge. The calculations below are just for example.

Assume that an alternator puts out 14 volts, and the float charge of a
lead-antimony battery is 2.15 volts per cell, or 12.9 volts. To get a
full charge, the voltage must reach that or slightly more, and be held
there for at least a brief period. That allows a maximum 1.1 volt
drop in connector and cables. On a #10 cable, a single 30 foot run
could deliver about 36 amps at 12.9 volts. Add in the connector loss,
and the fact that the return isn't a solid huge chassis, and useful
amperage is less. A #8 cable is significantly better.

Will the battery charge enough to be useful? Yes. Will a charge like
that bring the battery up to float charge easily and quickly? I don't
think so, especially after a few discharge cycles and the battery
begins to age. If I use a single marine battery while van camping, I
wear it out in a little over a week, even with recharging from a 1000
watt alternator for three or four hours a day.

Common thought is that a lead-acid cell discharged below 10.5 volts is
permanently damaged. A safer low voltage cutoff is 12 volts, and a
compromise for an emergency battery might be 11.5 volts (in that the
expected useful life of a battery is only about 3 years in Florida
heat anyway). BTW, the rate of discharge is not linear, so a battery
might last a good while going from 12.5 volts to 12 volts and only a
short length of time going from 12 volts to 11.5 volts.

The voltage drop while charging through a long cable will slow the
recharging and may cause the user to accept lower voltages as
"normal." That kills batteries - at least that has been my
experience.

None of this takes into account the de-rating of a battery at higher
temperatures, increased wire resistance at higher temps, etc..

Perhaps the user could use the long cables for a day or two and then
bring the battery to the car as a compromise?

By using 12 volt appliances rather than an inverter setup, your
concept does put a lot less drain on a battery, so you might not have
the concerns that I do in keeping a 120 vt refrigerator running. To
me, if I can't keep the refrigerator going, and a source of ice, I
don't find making my own power that attractive. My van has a tv, AC,
bed, dorm refrigerator and microwave. It would be easier for me to
just move into it for a few days.

You can calculate voltage drop here:
<http://www.stealth316.com/2-wire-resistance.htm>
Vaughn Simon
2006-05-28 15:12:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Harry Chickpea
(I wouldn't wait much more than five minutes in this situation, if
that. You are "jump starting" the deep discharge battery, and if the
voltage was particularly low, you could drop the car battery surface
charge below where it would easily start the car.)
Possible if the car already has a very weak battery, but frankly I doubt
it. In the case of the battery sitting on the ground next to the car conected
with a normal set of jumper cables, the amount of energy available to start the
car before and after the two batteries equalize is almost the same. Even though
the voltage available to the starter will be slightly less, the starter will see
a lower supply impedance (because of the two batteries in parallel) and will get
plenty of current to spin the starter for a few seconds. In the case of the
long "skinny" jumper cable, as you indicate below, the resistance of the
charging cable will limit energy transfer and slow the charge rate. The charge
rate will trail off quickly as the voltage raises on the deep cycle battery.

It would be much more fuel efficient to let the batteries equalize before
starting the car, and then you will get a maximum charge rate from the
alternator.
Post by Harry Chickpea
I agree that a long cable sort-of works, enough for a day or two, but
I wouldn't want to use it for much more than that, for fear of
undercharging the battery. This isn't an absolute, but part of the
trade-offs of battery convenience, lifespan, and use. The issue I see
is that long cables don't allow enough voltage for an equalizing
charge.
Perhaps we are using different assumptions, but (within reason) the
resistance of the charging cable has no effect on the final voltage that the
charged battery sees, it just makes the whole charge cycle much slower. Voltage
(E) equals the product of Current (I) and Resistance (R). So you can figure the
voltage drop in the charging cable by the formula E = I * R. You can see that
as the charge tapers towards zero, the voltage drop approaches zero. (The
underlying assumption here is that the user is smart enough to turn off all
loads during the charge cycle, otherwise all bets are off.)

By the way, a thirty foot charging cable (actually a 60-foot round trip) of
#10 wire would have .0708 ohm, plus the contact resistance (say .1 ohm). With
ten amps, that cable will drop a whopping 1.7 volts, but after the charge drops
to one amp, it would only be .17 volts, at 100 mills it would be .017 volts and
so on.

Regards
Vaughn
danny burstein
2006-05-28 17:28:20 UTC
Permalink
In <J5jeg.178955$***@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> "Vaughn Simon" <***@att.FAKE.net> writes:

[ full snip ]

If you're (plural) even thinking of using a car and
its alternator to provide the 12VDC to fed an
inverter (or other batteries), I strongly urge
you to spend the $25 or so dollars and get
a separate "jump start" battery. They're available
in auto supply stores (and Sears,e tc.). Nicely
packaged in a plastic case with handles and
jumper cables, etc.

The only thing you have to watch out for is
that they self discharge, so you have to plug
them in every month or so (either to a wall
outlet or via a 12 V patch cord).

Your car _will_ stall out, and your main car
battery is guaranted to drop below "starting"
voltage, in the middle of the night when you
need it for your inverter, etc.

(These also are superb for their primary use,
which is, of course, starting your car after
you left the lights on when parking. It also
makes it mcuh, much, simpler, to give a jump
start to your friend down the road...)
--
_____________________________________________________
Knowledge may be power, but communications is the key
***@panix.com
[to foil spammers, my address has been double rot-13 encoded]
(PeteCresswell)
2006-05-28 21:37:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by danny burstein
The only thing you have to watch out for is
that they self discharge,
One other consideration: choose a place to store it with the thought that you
don't want it hitting you or yours in the back of the neck in a minor
accident...
--
PeteCresswell
Harry Chickpea
2006-05-27 17:48:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by d***@gmail.com
I am in Florida and have gone through two years of bad hurricanes with
power outages that have lasted over two weeks. I live in an
apartment/condo with pretty large balconies... and was thinking of
using the Honda EU1000i or EU2000i portable generator on the balcony...
but, this might not be permitted by my condo rules and regs, and I'm
concerned about the safety issues as well... even if I keep my windows
closed, what about the downstairs neighbor!
Hi neighbor (waves) I'm south of you in Broward. You are correct that
a generator on the balcony won't be permitted. The police are wising
up that the practice is not only a noisy nuisance, but extremely
dangerous. Forget about that idea.

You might petition the condo board to install a large backup generator
that all tenants can use. If you have elevators, a backup may soon be
required by law anyway. Since this would be a retrofit, if it is a
small building, what could be done is a separate circuit near the
elevator shaft, with an outlet panel on each floor, containing one
individually fused socket for each condo unit, and a link to any
emergency lighting. The breaker would be designed to trip at 15 amps.
During an outage, each condo owner would have an approved heavy duty
extension cord, and plug this in to power their refrigerator, tv, and
fan, or small AC. The owners would decide beforehand whether to run
the generator all the time or just during certain periods.
Post by d***@gmail.com
As an alternative I'm considering a permanent inverter installation in
my car (and running extension cables up to the 2nd floor) after having
great success with a small 150 watt inverter the previous hurricane
season (it was enough to power my laptop (watch movies), a fan and a
couple of fluorescent lights).
I'd like at least 750 watts for the inverter and would like your
thoughts and opinions about a permanent installation of such a unit in
my car (I will probably have a car alarm/stereo place do the install).
The output of a car alternator is only about 750 watts and a lot of
that is used by parasitic loads in the car. You also have to use a
high idle to get any sort of power out of an alternator. Chances are
real good you would toast your electical system in your car, possibly
clog up the engine, and the system isn't efficient anyway.

Keeping it simple, you could chain a generator to your car.

However, what I would do in your situation is get a cheap generator, a
large battery charger, four golf-cart batteries, some welding cable, a
hydrometer, and an inverter, all for the same price as the Honda.

During the morning and early evening, I'd run the generator for an
hour or two beside the car, drop a cable down, and use the charger to
charge the batteries, which would have been placed on the balcony and
connected after the storm. Once the batteries were charged, I'd let
the generator cool and lock it in the trunk of the car, and use
battery power and the inverter.

I used a variation of this after Wilma, and kept my refrigerator going
24/7 and had enough power to do what I wanted. Anything that took
serious electricity, like the washing machine, was only run on
generator power.

Caveats -
Some appliances don't like inverter power.
Some chargers may not like generator power.
You need _at least_ a 1200 watt inverter to start a fridge compressor.
Forget about using a room air conditioner except on generator power.
If an appliance uses electrical resistance heat - ditch it.*
Batteries should only be discharged to 50% of rated capacity.
Batteries should be fully charged and equalized at least once a week
under these conditions.
You can't substitute car batteries for this usage.
You should buy all four golf cart batteries as a unit.
Batteries used like this must be outside of the dwelling (you can
store them inside if you aren't charging or using them - just be
careful - store them in rubbermaid plastic storage containers that
you've cut holes in the top of for venting any hydrogen.)

* I'm amazed at people stuggling after a storm to try to cook
everything on a grill. A single burner propane camp stove is less
than $15 and sits on a propane bottle. It is great for making coffee
with an old style percolator or a french press, and for heating small
amounts of water and normal cooking. Sterno or alcohol saturated
cotton batting in a tuna can is great for slow cooking.

For large amounts of hot water, buy a box of 1.5 mil black plastic
garbage bags. Push out the excess air and lie a bag on its side in
the sun with a couple of inches of water in it. You'll have hot water
for dish cleaning. Do a few bags and have enough for a tub bath in
the afternoon or evening.
Neon John
2006-05-27 18:00:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by d***@gmail.com
I'd like at least 750 watts for the inverter and would like your
thoughts and opinions about a permanent installation of such a unit in
my car (I will probably have a car alarm/stereo place do the install).
Or, should i reconsider the small Honda generators instead?
Bad idea. I'll leave it to you to go out on the net and learn the
difference between starting batteries and deep discharge batteries.
You have a couple of key words to google for now.

The other problem is energy density. An old rule of thumb is that
1000 lbs of lead-acid batteries contain the same energy as a gallon of
gasoline.

Tying these two thoughts together, you'd need a thousand lbs of
batteries to supply the same load for the same period of time as a
single gallon of gas in a generator would.

I'd recommend a portable generator. The Honda EU is good, though I
try to direct people to other brands because Honda does everything it
legally can to price-fix, prohibiting advertising price on the net and
so on. Yamaha makes a line of inverter generators that is as good if
not better than the Hondas for a bit less money. There's a ChiCom
clone of the EU (can't recall the name right now) that has gotten good
reviews. I can't actually recommend one because I've yet have my
hands on one to test but I will mention it here.

Regarding the condo association, screw 'em. In a weather emergency,
even the worst of the busy-bodies will have is hands too full to worry
about generators. The inverter generators are small, very quiet and
the amount of exhaust emitted is almost insignificant. Certainly not
enough to bother anyone in adjacent units.

What you can do with your car is a) keep it filled with gas and b)
have a fuel tap installed so that you can harvest gas when you need it
without having to resort to siphoning. A gas tap is nothing more than
a valve tee'd into the gas line, equipped with a nipple that a length
of rubber gas line can be slipped onto when needed.

All that is required to harvest gas is to crank the car's engine to
fire off the fuel pump, connect some hose and turn the valve. EFI
fuel pumps can move a lot of fuel quickly so it won't take long to
harvest a gallon or two at a time.

An added advantage is that the fuel is always fresh since you're
constantly using it during normal driving.

I've pretty much stopped keeping gas around the place for my gas
operated equipment. I simply fill the tank of the weed whacker or
pressure washer directly from my car.

I'd probably want to have a 5 gallon gas can around for just in case
the storm surge gets to your car but I'd not keep it filled. Just
fill it from the car tap when the bad weather is headed in. If you
don't need the gas then you can pour it back into the car tank later.

John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
Don't let your schooling interfere with your education-Mark Twain
Harry Chickpea
2006-05-27 18:37:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Neon John
Regarding the condo association, screw 'em. In a weather emergency,
even the worst of the busy-bodies will have is hands too full to worry
about generators.
LOL! While I like the sentiment, I can tell you haven't lived in
south Florida, John. When the power goes out, it unhooks the
television IV from all the transplanted New Yorkers. You would get
less angry activity if you hit the side of a beehive with a baseball
bat.

The obvious solution is to stay out of condos and homeowner
associations. The other obvious solution is that there is no perfect
obvious solution. Generators alone are simple, but having batteries
reduces the need for fuel and provides some quiet time (unless some
other condo owner has said "screw 'em" to everyone in the condo.)

If I was second floor or higher in a condo, I'd probably just take a
vacation for a couple of weeks and let the others bake and bitch until
the power returned.
Neon John
2006-05-27 20:56:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Harry Chickpea
Post by Neon John
Regarding the condo association, screw 'em. In a weather emergency,
even the worst of the busy-bodies will have is hands too full to worry
about generators.
LOL! While I like the sentiment, I can tell you haven't lived in
south Florida, John. When the power goes out, it unhooks the
television IV from all the transplanted New Yorkers. You would get
less angry activity if you hit the side of a beehive with a baseball
bat.
You couldn't get me near south Florida with a gun to my head. I've
experienced more than enough Nu Yawk yankee *ssholes in their native
environment to want to be near 'em in geezerland under adverse
conditions. (Hey, I did my part to help raise NYC's power bills,
helping build Shoreham :-)

One potential solution could be some innovative chemical weaponry.
Say, a big pot of chitlins cooking on the coleman stove..... When the
suckers can't breath, they can't bitch. When all else fails, shoot
the b*stards. Not much forensics to be had in the middle of a
hurricane. No smileys.

That's the down side of all this money being spent on emergency
services - it's getting harder and harder for the weather to do
Darwin's work these days....
Post by Harry Chickpea
The obvious solution is to stay out of condos and homeowner
associations.
AMEN, Bro! Attica is more appealing than dealing with either of
those.
Post by Harry Chickpea
The other obvious solution is that there is no perfect
obvious solution. Generators alone are simple, but having batteries
reduces the need for fuel and provides some quiet time (unless some
other condo owner has said "screw 'em" to everyone in the condo.)
Well yeah, batteries are nice - I have a thousand pounds or so
installed in my mountain retreat's UPS system. And another thousand
pounds in my electric car. But not terribly practical for the
described environment unless one wants to dedicate a bedroom to 'em.

I have a LOT of experience dry camping in an RV so I have to chuckle
when I read advice to someone to "just get a trolling battery and an
inverter or 12 volt appliances and you'll be set for the duration."
Simple math and experience both show the fallacy of that one.

If all one needs is a few lights and perhaps a fan then a hybrid
system consisting of a deep cycle battery (or two), a small inverter
and a small generator would work well. In effect, that's what I have
in my RV. The lights are CF and the fans are high efficiency BLDC
motored. I charge for an hour every day or two using a generator and
high powered charger (PD Intellipower 60 amp with Charge Wizard). You
can figure double or triple that power demand for even a small
portable TV. (If you must, a small flat panel TV MIGHT be a bit more
energy-efficient.) But if one wants to refrigerate - even just a
little bit - or cook or do any of the other things that makes life off
the grid enjoyable then forget the battery-based solution and get a
small generator.

It's hard to define 'quiet time' when discussing the small inverter
generators, they're so quiet. This isn't like having a bellowing
Coleman next to the patio door.
Post by Harry Chickpea
If I was second floor or higher in a condo, I'd probably just take a
vacation for a couple of weeks and let the others bake and bitch until
the power returned.
well yeah, that's what I'd do too but the guy didn't ask for that kind
of advice. I just assume he knows what he wants to accomplish and
then go about telling him how.

John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
Don't let your schooling interfere with your education-Mark Twain
Ulysses
2006-05-27 23:45:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by d***@gmail.com
I am in Florida and have gone through two years of bad hurricanes with
power outages that have lasted over two weeks. I live in an
apartment/condo with pretty large balconies... and was thinking of
using the Honda EU1000i or EU2000i portable generator on the balcony...
but, this might not be permitted by my condo rules and regs, and I'm
concerned about the safety issues as well... even if I keep my windows
closed, what about the downstairs neighbor!
If you can make an eu2000 so it's not visible without interfering with the
intake or exhaust you can pretty much drown out the noise with a small
electric fan, be it 12 VDC or AC. They are very quiet except when running
at near full load and then they are still not very noticeable. I don't
really see why safety would be a serious issue as long as the exhaust is not
allowed to build up. Perhaps something that looks like a patio table that
will disguise the genny and reduce the noise.

Neon John mentioned a Chinese clone generator and there are also inverter
generators made by Kipor but first we need a volunteer to buy one and run it
through the wringer and post a review. Yamaha inverter generators have
excellent reviews too. The main reason I bought a Honda is because there
are at least two warranty repair places near me and none for Yamaha. If
noise is a major concern then I suggest you stick with the inverter
generators.

If it was me I'd use the eu2000 (more effecient than the eu1000 and probably
quieter at half load because the eu2000 will be running slower) to run small
appliances and charge two-four golf cart batteries. I suggest using a good
battery charger rather than the built-in DC output as it is really only
suitable for occasional, urgent use. A cheap 700 watt inverter could run a
small TV, DVD/VHS player and computer while the generator is off. If you
need AC the eu2000 will power one up to perhaps 8000 BTU but as someone else
recently pointed out there may be a big difference in the startup power
needed by different models so shop around.
Post by d***@gmail.com
As an alternative I'm considering a permanent inverter installation in
my car (and running extension cables up to the 2nd floor) after having
great success with a small 150 watt inverter the previous hurricane
season (it was enough to power my laptop (watch movies), a fan and a
couple of fluorescent lights).
I'd like at least 750 watts for the inverter and would like your
thoughts and opinions about a permanent installation of such a unit in
my car (I will probably have a car alarm/stereo place do the install).
Or, should i reconsider the small Honda generators instead?
Thanks!
I think inverters in cars are great for occasional use for drills and saws
etc. in remote areas but I think it's a horrible idea for what you are
doing. For one thing you would be using a lot more gasoline and horsepower
to do the job and your car battery is not designed to be discharged
repeatedly.
Post by d***@gmail.com
Cliff in Delray Beach, Florida
(PeteCresswell)
2006-05-28 00:40:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Harry Chickpea
I don't
really see why safety would be a serious issue as long as the exhaust is not
allowed to build up.
I'm no expert... but I can envision the fumes drifting into a neighbor's open
patio door - depending on the wind.
--
PeteCresswell
Ulysses
2006-05-28 02:37:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by (PeteCresswell)
Post by Harry Chickpea
I don't
really see why safety would be a serious issue as long as the exhaust is not
allowed to build up.
I'm no expert... but I can envision the fumes drifting into a neighbor's open
patio door - depending on the wind.
I use an eu2000 next to a travel trailer and never have had any problems
with exhaust getting inside. It usually sits out in front about 6 feet from
the door. It doesn't seem to matter which way the wind is blowing.
Certainly, under certain circumstances, it could be a problem but on a
second-floor balcony I'd expect the exhaust to disperse quickly.
Post by (PeteCresswell)
--
PeteCresswell
Neon John
2006-05-28 14:32:42 UTC
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On Sat, 27 May 2006 19:37:08 -0700, "Ulysses"
Post by Ulysses
Post by (PeteCresswell)
Post by Harry Chickpea
I don't
really see why safety would be a serious issue as long as the exhaust is
not
Post by (PeteCresswell)
Post by Harry Chickpea
allowed to build up.
I'm no expert... but I can envision the fumes drifting into a neighbor's
open
Post by (PeteCresswell)
patio door - depending on the wind.
I use an eu2000 next to a travel trailer and never have had any problems
with exhaust getting inside. It usually sits out in front about 6 feet from
the door. It doesn't seem to matter which way the wind is blowing.
Certainly, under certain circumstances, it could be a problem but on a
second-floor balcony I'd expect the exhaust to disperse quickly.
I suppose that under dead-calm conditions, a bitchy neighbor might get
a whiff of exhaust. The solution to that is simple - set the
generator on the balcony with the exhaust pointing out. Put a box
over the thing if you have to hide it. Set a fan beside it to blow
the exhaust away. Voila - dead-calm becomes an impossibility and
bitchy neighbors can find something else to bitch about.

John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
Don't let your schooling interfere with your education-Mark Twain
m***@privacy.net
2006-05-28 00:51:31 UTC
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Post by Ulysses
If it was me I'd use the eu2000
cost?
Ulysses
2006-05-28 02:17:27 UTC
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Post by Ulysses
If it was me I'd use the eu2000
cost?
Honda eu2000 generators are going for about $900 in South California and the
eu1000s are about $650.
Neon John
2006-05-28 14:28:47 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 27 May 2006 16:45:20 -0700, "Ulysses"
Post by Ulysses
If you can make an eu2000 so it's not visible without interfering with the
intake or exhaust you can pretty much drown out the noise with a small
electric fan, be it 12 VDC or AC. They are very quiet except when running
at near full load and then they are still not very noticeable. I don't
really see why safety would be a serious issue as long as the exhaust is not
allowed to build up. Perhaps something that looks like a patio table that
will disguise the genny and reduce the noise.
My ex and I used to do craft shows with her stained glass. We needed
just a little bit of power to run the bulbs in her stained glass lamps
and a fan or two. Many shows charge exorbitant fees for power - $50
or more per day. Most of these same promoters ban generators to force
exhibitors to buy the scalped power.

Being a cheap-skate and not liking getting rammed, I declined the
scalped power. The demand was too much for the old trolling battery
and inverter trick so I settled for subterfuge.

Honda's first inverter generator that had any market share was the
EX350. A small 2-stroke-based unit that only made 350 watts but did
so extremely quietly. Quiet enough that I could hide the generator
right there in the booth without anyone noticing.

My solution was to simply upend a cardboard box over the running
generator. I punched a few holes in the box and mounted a muffin fan
on one side to force in cooling air and to make enough noise to drown
out the slight hum of the engine. With no-smoke oil, there was no
visible exhaust emission and essentially no odor. No one ever caught
on.

I did keep a marine battery box sitting at the back of the booth as a
diversion for particularly anal promoters. I used it as a tool box. I
stuffed an extension cord up one of the openings to make it look like
power was coming from the battery.

The EX is/was actually a little quieter than the EUs but that is
balanced by the EUs having no visible exhaust emission and essentially
no odor once warmed up.
Post by Ulysses
Neon John mentioned a Chinese clone generator and there are also inverter
generators made by Kipor but first we need a volunteer to buy one and run it
through the wringer and post a review.
That's the name of the Chicom EU clone that I could not recall. There
are plenty of reviews on the net of those generators and all that I've
read are positive. Besides, they're so cheap that when one does wear
out, just toss it and get a new one. Yeah, that does offend my
Southern frugality (similar to yankee frugality only better) but hey,
this is the 21st century and most everything is throw-away.

John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
Don't let your schooling interfere with your education-Mark Twain
Ulysses
2006-05-29 00:54:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Neon John
On Sat, 27 May 2006 16:45:20 -0700, "Ulysses"
Post by Ulysses
Neon John mentioned a Chinese clone generator and there are also inverter
generators made by Kipor but first we need a volunteer to buy one and run it
through the wringer and post a review.
That's the name of the Chicom EU clone that I could not recall. There
are plenty of reviews on the net of those generators and all that I've
read are positive. Besides, they're so cheap that when one does wear
out, just toss it and get a new one. Yeah, that does offend my
Southern frugality (similar to yankee frugality only better) but hey,
this is the 21st century and most everything is throw-away.
John
I've not searched for reviews recently on the Sinemaster/Kipors so maybe
I'll do it again.

BTW it turns out that even the Honda eu2000 can be considered throwaway now.
When my first one wore out I discovered that there is no replacement engine
or short block available and to have someone repair it would cost about $800
with a new one costing $900. I plan to tear it down in the near future and
see just what went wrong. I suspect a broken piston ring because the oil
level actually increased so gasoline must be getting in there. Maybe all it
needs is to be bored out, some new rings, a valve job, and a new timing
belt.

JoeSP
2006-05-28 01:06:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by d***@gmail.com
I am in Florida and have gone through two years of bad hurricanes with
power outages that have lasted over two weeks. I live in an
apartment/condo with pretty large balconies... and was thinking of
using the Honda EU1000i or EU2000i portable generator on the balcony...
but, this might not be permitted by my condo rules and regs, and I'm
concerned about the safety issues as well... even if I keep my windows
closed, what about the downstairs neighbor!
As an alternative I'm considering a permanent inverter installation in
my car (and running extension cables up to the 2nd floor) after having
great success with a small 150 watt inverter the previous hurricane
season (it was enough to power my laptop (watch movies), a fan and a
couple of fluorescent lights).
I'd like at least 750 watts for the inverter and would like your
thoughts and opinions about a permanent installation of such a unit in
my car (I will probably have a car alarm/stereo place do the install).
Or, should i reconsider the small Honda generators instead?
Thanks!
Cliff in Delray Beach, Florida
If you want to keep a freezer or refrigerator going, you'd need a generator.
A 750 watt inverter will draw a lot of power from a battery. Even assuming
90% efficiency, it will draw at least 65 amps under full load, which few car
alternators are capable of handling. In my experience, taxing a car
electrical system with such severe loads will probably cause it to fail
prematurely. The other problem is the car battery, which isn't designed to
deep-cycle and will probably be ruined after a few deep discharges and fast
charges.

In any case, running your car will probably be noisier and costlier than a
good inverter generator. If you can't afford the noise, take the advice of
the guy who suggested building a battery bank of deep-cycle batteries. For
about half the cost of a good generator, you could probably run your stuff
for a few days, if you do it sparingly. With a modest 10-amp battery
charge, you could have them back up to full charge in about 2-3 weeks.
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